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Post by cassie on Aug 1, 2011 2:14:07 GMT -5
I've started this thread to define what we mean when we talk about pitches with terms like C#3 or F5. Unless you are a total music geek like me, you probably don't know those terms. I can talk, instead, about middle C, C the octave above, etc, but it still won't make a lot of sense if you don't play keyboards. So, here is the secret decoder. www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/pitch/pitch.htmlThe yellow key is C4, or middle C. Click on the key to hear the tone. (Disregard their names for the notes. They are using a different system.) If you move to the left of the yellow key, you are going down in pitch. Go down 7 white keys and you will see a duplicate of the configuration of white and black keys. That is C3. From C4 to C3 is one octave. (Oct meaning eight. So, counting C4 and C3, there are 8 white keys in all) If you move to the right of the yellow key, you are going up in pitch. Count 7 white keys to the right from the yellow key, and that is C5, The octave above C4. Seven more white keys from that is C6. And so on. So the white keys are, respectively starting with the yellow key and going up (to the right), C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, and so on. (Don't ask me why they didn't start with A as the middle or yellow key. I've never had a good explanation for that.) Starting at the yellow key and going to the left it is C, B, A, G, F, E, D, C, and so on. But what are these # and b symbols after the letters???? They refer to the black keys. The yellow key is C4. The black key just to the right is C#4. (Again, don't ask me why they didn't just give it its own letter. No logic there.) Count five white keys to the right of the yellow key, D, E, F, G, A. That is A4. The black key just to the right of that is A#4. Now that we have decoded the # symbol (called a sharp), and named all the black and white keys, what the heck is the b symbol used for? It's just to mess up your mind by complicating matters. Take a deep breath. Here we go. You know that black key we just labeled A#4? Well, it can also be called Bb4. Huh? The b symbol (called a flat), refers to the pitch immediately below (to the left of) the capital letter, just as the # symbol refers to the pitch immediately above (to the right of) the capital letter. Starting with the yellow key, C4, count up six white keys... D, E, F, G, A, B. The black key to the left of the B is Bb (or B-flat). But, if you count up only five white keys, D, E, F, G, A, the same black key, could also be called A# (or A-sharp). So, two names for the same pitch, depending on how it is referenced. As you can probably guess, the theory is way more convoluted than what I have just explained (when the heck do we call it A# and when do we call it Bb, and who the hell cares???), but, no need to bother with that. This will work to let you use the link to find the pitches we refer to. Now that you have the secret decoder ring and the code key, you can ask questions about what the heck was that crazy note Adam hit in WLL, and understand the answer. Or, you can plink around on the keyboard at the link and see if you can match it up, just like I frequently do on my piano at home. Have fun! |
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tiilis
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Post by tiilis on Aug 1, 2011 3:03:26 GMT -5
So the white keys are, respectively starting with the yellow key and going up (to the right), C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, and so on. (Don't ask me why they didn't start with A as the middle or yellow key. I've never had a good explanation for that.) Starting at the yellow key and going to the left it is C, B, A, G, F, E, D, C, and so on. Hmm... I´ve learned "your" B to be H! Interesting, and good to know! :D |
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Post by Craazyforadam on Aug 1, 2011 21:51:20 GMT -5
tiilis: yup, I did too, Germany and German speaking countries use that notation as well. C, D, E, F, G, A, H, C We also used the octave description that is used on the piano in Cassie's link ( www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/pitch/pitch.html) rather than the one used here in US: In the link, the yellow key is on that screen marked as having the note name c1 (where the '1' is shown as upper index). In the notation that I found here this is called C4. What America calls C3 is called 'small c' there and so forth. It can actually be quite confusing. And don't even get me started on do,re,mi, fa, sol, la, si, do.... The French use the do, re,mi - notation for music and so I was somewhat familiar with that. Why we cannot agree on one way around the world? Add that to the list of questions like, why do we use different modems in different countries, electric outlets, emergency phone numbers, train track widths, shoe sizing systems, video formats....and on and on and on. It makes no sense, but it will always successfully help you to make a fool of yourself when in a new country. You don't want to know the faces of some Americans when I (an Austrian) had to tell them 20 years ago that I did not know what Sound of Music was. It was actually quite funny. The good news, the # and b notation is pretty universal as far as I know, so once you got that figured out, you are good to go. Or so I thought until tonight when I bought the sheet music to Adele's 21. Now I find that I cannot read that f*##ing notation they use there for the guitar keys. Now I will have to figure that one out. I am pretty self-taught on the guitar, so who knows I may be missing a few chapters, but I was able to read the sheet music to WWFM no problem when it came out. By the way, does anyone know whether they printed any sheet music for any of Adam's songs besides WWFM? I know there are knock-off versions for free on the internet, but I'd prefer to support my artist (same topic as with music downloads, etc), if possible. So, if you know of such AL sheet music. please let us all know. Thanks |
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Post by cassie on Aug 1, 2011 23:09:31 GMT -5
I did not realize that the basic C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C, notation was not universal. Ridiculous. I was aware that the identification of the various octaves varied.... c, c1, vs. C3, C4, etc. I chose to use the terms that I have read used when discussing range on different forums and on the YT videos. Trying for some consistency here, but I know it is confusing.
At least, with the link, someone can check out notes without having a piano at home. Hope it helps.
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tiilis
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Post by tiilis on Aug 2, 2011 1:38:35 GMT -5
Yes, Craazyforadam, your octave description is much more familiar to me than the one cassie uses. That makes sense because even though I live in Finland my teacher in violin was from Germany, and he´s the one that has taught me everything that I know about music theory. :D Anyway, the link cassie gave was very useful in this. So thank you, cassie!
Just out of curiosity, if you are speaking about the notes, what terms do you use? Do you use same terms I´ve learned: C#=cis, D#= des... and Cb=ces, Db=des...?
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Post by csharpminor on Aug 2, 2011 6:11:35 GMT -5
hi everyone. some informations from Music Atlas by Ulrich Michels. (pictures from google  ) there were no names for the notes until Guido D'Arezzo(991/992-1050). The hexachord system used 6 notes (tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone). To make it easier to remember the positions of the notes, D'Arezzo used ut,re,mi,fa,sol,la. There were 3 hexachords: naturale from ut, durum (hard) from sol and molle (soft) from fa. (dur and moll for major and minor in the German system Tiilis.)There were 7 blending hexachords through all the system.  You see above the 7 hexachords (hard,natural,soft,hard,natural,soft,hard.) The letters that cover the whole range start with the Greek Γ(gamma) and then A,B,C... From Guido D'Arezzo also comes the Guidonic hand as a tool to help singers remember the hexachords and the position of the semitone.  Later ut changed to do and the hexachord expanded to cover an octave do re mi fa sol la si do. In Greece we use the Italian (do re mi fa sol la si) system. Searching the internet I found this site, if you want to read more. www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory1.htm |
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Holst
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Post by Holst on Aug 3, 2011 13:21:52 GMT -5
tiilis: By the way, does anyone know whether they printed any sheet music for any of Adam's songs besides WWFM? I know there are knock-off versions for free on the internet, but I'd prefer to support my artist (same topic as with music downloads, etc), if possible. So, if you know of such AL sheet music. please let us all know. Thanks IIHY www.jwpepper.com/10188312.item |
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Post by nica575 on Aug 6, 2011 17:51:27 GMT -5
Ha,,,I did not know you are discussing music notations here... My little input: I got my 12 years of "formal" piano playing education in Moscow, Russia.. It was do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si, do.... I've never heard of a letter notation before coming to the US... 30 years later and I am still "converting" in my head : A = la, C = do, etc... same with octaves... I know them by Contra-Great-Small-First-Second-Third-Fourth (the same notation Cassie posted here www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/pitch/pitch.html, so the notations used by the DDD people is another "translation" for me, because the First octave = 4, and so on. anyway, I got the idea pretty quickly, so not a problem, just annoying... cassie, re the "low" notes: How low do we have Adam go in the beginning? It sounds to me somewhere around A2 - D3, but I've been fooled by Adam many times, so I need your opinion: www.youtube.com/watch?v=By39_debAw8 |
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Post by cassie on Aug 6, 2011 22:04:30 GMT -5
Ha,,,I did not know you are discussing music notations here... My little input: I got my 12 years of "formal" piano playing education in Moscow, Russia.. It was do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si, do.... I've never heard of a letter notation before coming to the US... 30 years later and I am still "converting" in my head : A = la, C = do, etc... same with octaves... I know them by Contra-Great-Small-First-Second-Third-Fourth (the same notation Cassie posted here www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/pitch/pitch.html, so the notations used by the DDD people is another "translation" for me, because the First octave = 4, and so on. anyway, I got the idea pretty quickly, so not a problem, just annoying... cassie, re the "low" notes: How low do we have Adam go in the beginning? It sounds to me somewhere around A2 - D3, but I've been fooled by Adam many times, so I need your opinion: www.youtube.com/watch?v=By39_debAw8Had no idea we had so many music notations. Now that you mention it, I vaguely recall contra, great, small, etc. Kind of in a haze in the past. When I need to refer to notes in my RL, I usually speak in terms of "middle C" with other musicians. Like you, I had to learn the notation used on DDD and on the YT vids. As to how low can he go? At the beginning of Light Falls Away, the first note, he brushes a Bb2. When the verse comes around again at about 0:47 he hits it more strongly, if very briefly. The D3 you refer to is at "another" day, right? The DDD guys swear they hear a G#2 in For Your Entertainment. I have listened repeatedly, with earphones, and can't hear anything resembling a note at that pitch. But, they may have younger ears or better equipment. If it is there it is so soft, and for such a fragment of a second, I don't consider it a legitimate note. But, they do. Heck, it gives Adam a greater range, which is good in their minds. So, I'll leave them to it. I'm curious. You learned the solfege (do, re, mi) notation. So, is do always a C? Even if the music is not in the key of C? Because, the way it is used in the US, "do" is the home note in whatever key a song is in. If the song is in G, then G is "do", A is "re" etc. The way you learned in Russia, would the G be referred to as "sol" regardless of the key of the song? |
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Post by nica575 on Aug 6, 2011 23:09:30 GMT -5
Ha,,,I did not know you are discussing music notations here... My little input: I got my 12 years of "formal" piano playing education in Moscow, Russia.. It was do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si, do.... I've never heard of a letter notation before coming to the US... 30 years later and I am still "converting" in my head : A = la, C = do, etc... same with octaves... I know them by Contra-Great-Small-First-Second-Third-Fourth (the same notation Cassie posted here www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/pitch/pitch.html, so the notations used by the DDD people is another "translation" for me, because the First octave = 4, and so on. anyway, I got the idea pretty quickly, so not a problem, just annoying... cassie, re the "low" notes: How low do we have Adam go in the beginning? It sounds to me somewhere around A2 - D3, but I've been fooled by Adam many times, so I need your opinion: www.youtube.com/watch?v=By39_debAw8Had no idea we had so many music notations. Now that you mention it, I vaguely recall contra, great, small, etc. Kind of in a haze in the past. When I need to refer to notes in my RL, I usually speak in terms of "middle C" with other musicians. Like you, I had to learn the notation used on DDD and on the YT vids. As to how low can he go? At the beginning of Light Falls Away, the first note, he brushes a Bb2. When the verse comes around again at about 0:47 he hits it more strongly, if very briefly. The D3 you refer to is at "another" day, right? The DDD guys swear they hear a G#2 in For Your Entertainment. I have listened repeatedly, with earphones, and can't hear anything resembling a note at that pitch. But, they may have younger ears or better equipment. If it is there it is so soft, and for such a fragment of a second, I don't consider it a legitimate note. But, they do. Heck, it gives Adam a greater range, which is good in their minds. So, I'll leave them to it. I'm curious. You learned the solfege (do, re, mi) notation. So, is do always a C? Even if the music is not in the key of C? Because, the way it is used in the US, "do" is the home note in whatever key a song is in. If the song is in G, then G is "do", A is "re" etc. The way you learned in Russia, would the G be referred to as "sol" regardless of the key of the song? , yes D3 seems to be where you hear it... It sounds to me that the song is in D minor, so it makes sense... and yes- do is ALWAYS a C, sol is always a G... actually I never knew that here "do" is used as the "key home" note. I was reading csharpminor's post and I was getting totally confused by the sliding table :( But the hand table is somewhat familiar - we were using something like that to figure out the tone distances... What we use is: tonika (T) = I (Roman numeral 1) =your do (home key) dominanta (D) = V (Roman numeral 5) -= your sol subdominanta (S) = IV = your fa others have their own names (like III and VI are mediantas) It is actually interesting how many notations are apparently in use... I guess we should be happy that at least the five-line staff is common ;D ..checked wikipedia - it is even worse than we think: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation |
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