Music and musicians NOT ADAM

[cassie]

Dec 16, 2015 2:44:25 GMT -5 ghost said:

Dec 16, 2015 1:38:18 GMT -5 cassie said:

Too harsh? What am I missing?

Would love to hear your analysis of this performance as well, cassie! I didn't expect him to sound mostly in tune and even go up an octave at 2:15.

Clever song. I can see why it is popular. Musically, there ain't much to it. Two very similar chord progressions repeated for the whole song. The majority of the melody resides within a 5 note range, E-B, so the listener can learn it in just a couple of verses, and sing along almost immediately. (Very similar to "Mary Had A Little Lamb," actually.) It also has very short phrases, 3-5 seconds in length. That makes it easy to sing without needing any breath support. 

As for his performance, vocally, yes, it is on pitch. It also touches on a wider range, going very briefly down to a B2, and in the latter part of the chorus, up the octave to E4-G#4. My problem with the upper range is it sounds strained and pushed at E4 and beyond. It also has a lot of nasal tone. Has Justin had any vocal training? Because in the two songs I listened to, he is not accessing any of his body's resonance to add depth to his tone, and he has no vibrato for warmth. Coupled with the very short phrases that need no breath control, he sounds raw and untrained. Not a pleasant sounding voice, IMO. 

But, I imagine that good pop songs are written for an untrained voice with limited range and control. Simple to sing, simple to remember. (Hey, "Mary Had A Little Lamb" is a very popular kid's song for the same reasons. Nothing wrong with that.) And, as someone wrote on the thread, many of the listeners pop/Top 40 songs are written for do not give a damn about the voice, or the musical sophistication of the song. 

From the very limited samples I have listened to, Justin is not much of a singer. But, he puts on a performance that his audience loves. If that includes you, it's all good.

[red panda]

cassie wrote:

tentative and unsupported

Nothing yummy.

Thanks, cassie.  Once again you gave me the words I didn't know I was looking for.

But at the same time the whole package is catchy, imo, in a music lite sort of way.  Plus Justin Bieber is for me sort of a train wreck I can't look away from.  I can't quite decide if he is salvagable, I really hope so.  All my sympathies go to those talented kids who become a financial support for their entire network, and live in an entitled bubble surrounded by people who, in many cases, do not have their best interests at heart.  In my opinion.  For me, Judy Garland is the prime example of that kind of tragic life.  And I adore Judy Garland, she was only 47 when she died.  

I'm trying to picture Adam singing Sorry or What Do You Mean, not sure if it would sound silly because he is so over qualified, or if he could bring the depth and meaning even to those songs.  I pretty sure he could do a great impersonation of Justin Bieber singing.

Off topic, but still under the umbrella of the arts:

There is a review of a book which is apparently the first comprehensive look at tap dancing.  Sounds fascinating:  www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/30/up-from-the-hold


It references these amazing tappers:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhknrNZyE-I 


Let's see, on topic, on topic....  Well, at one point in the video there is dancing on a piano, and in the main thread they were talking about Adam on a piano, also there is a bit of singing which qualifies it for this thread.  Plus a maestro is a maestro, no matter what the field.

And speaking of Judy Garland, who may or may not be a great singer, but who can move me to tears, so many feels, love her so much:




Gotta mention Ella, love her in a different way, she is like velvet, like melted chocolate, like a warm wrap, relax, she will take you there:  (cassie, listen to ~2:30 and how she sings "key."





Sorry if I am referencing too many from the past, I do love Adam, of course, and Bruno Mars, and I know there is much to appreciate in current music.  I just can't shake my love for those wonderful singers of the past.  The thing I find missing in some of today's music is the feels, so when Adam came along, for me it was like heaven.  Feels forever.  Plus he is so fucking hot.  I have a few feels about that also.  

[Deleted]

The analysis of Justin's vocal performance may be harsh - but I don't doubt the accuracy of any of it. I don't think you're missing anything about his voice.

BUT . . . I like and enjoy "What Do You Mean? and "Sorry" on the radio. And they are on constantly (I think JB has 3 songs in the BB top 10 right now).

As someone said last nite - radio is about songs. "What Do You Mean" and "Sorry" each have all kinds of different flavors of ear candy going on - "bells and whistles," I suppose (maybe literally bells and whistles sometimes) - sounds, effects, beats, hooks, whatever, that are created, I think, by producers, sound engineers, etc.

Also, the songs' lyrics are fun and relatable ("and by once or twice I mean a couple of hundred times" is particularly stuck in my head right now because it's kind of funny, easy to imagine as true, and just slips into the slot of the tune so nicely). And, again maybe by studio magic, Justin's voice sounds as soft and pretty as he undeniably looks.

It's like JB is the racecar driver, and he's good, but the racecar is the song and Justin can afford the very best becuase he has proven himself to investors. (I don't know if that metaphor works, but I love trying.). He's got a big team, they all have a lot riding on him, they would hate to see him lose or - worse - crash and burn.

I think "The Orignial High" is Adam's best vehicle from this album, has the best shot of getting the "high"est chart position for him. (But I think the line "tryin' ' to replicate" is . . . noticeably "wtf?" It makes it sound like Adam and his lover are working on a cloning experiment. Hopefully, others don't hear that like I do.)

ETA - I don't actually like "Mary Had A Little Lamb," though - imagine that!  I worked so hard to make sure my post was not off-putting or putting down, and then - after I posted - I saw that.  Oh, well.

[red panda]

brdgt, I had to laugh at your comment about replicate.  Here's another:  "All of my friends had been disaffected."

Every time I hear a word or phrase like that in Adam's songs I think of Dadbert.  I think words were important and used in their home.

[ghost]

Thanks cassie!

[cassie]

Dec 16, 2015 9:23:28 GMT -5 red panda said:

cassie wrote:

tentative and unsupported

Nothing yummy.

Thanks, cassie.  Once again you gave me the words I didn't know I was looking for.

And speaking of Judy Garland, who may or may not be a great singer, but who can move me to tears, so many feels, love her so much:




Gotta mention Ella, love her in a different way, she is like velvet, like melted chocolate, like a warm wrap, relax, she will take you there:  (cassie, listen to ~2:30 and how she sings "key."





Sorry if I am referencing too many from the past, I do love Adam, of course, and Bruno Mars, and I know there is much to appreciate in current music.  I just can't shake my love for those wonderful singers of the past.  The thing I find missing in some of today's music is the feels, so when Adam came along, for me it was like heaven.  Feels forever.  Plus he is so fucking hot.  I have a few feels about that also.  

Ah, the old standards sung by the best. Sigh. There was certainly a different musical esthetic back then. Or, perhaps, time has distilled the countless songs from a bygone era down to the most memorable and emotional compositions and performers? These two ladies sure knew how to deliver a song, didn't they?

I had the privilege of seeing Ella in concert when she was well into her 60s. Still a great voice that sounded forty years younger than she actually was. And could she turn a phrase and sing a jazz riff!!! 

We could go on and on waxing nostalgic and bemoaning the state of current pop music, but, to each their own. If music touches you in whatever way, and makes you happy, makes you feel, it's all good (as long as I don't have to listen to it, necessarily). 

[red panda]

I feel, being a child of the sixties, that we made some great contributions to the down side of pop:




and also to the better side:




There will always be songs and singers you love that other people don't feel the same way about.  I agree with cassie, it if makes you feel, that is enough.  



This is one of my favorite songs ever, and I bet not many people would agree with me.  Always makes me smile.  "Your portion ain't equal to my lump sum."  Can't beat that for lyrical content, imo.

[cassie]

Dec 16, 2015 10:28:13 GMT -5 brdgt said:

Dec 16, 2015 9:19:33 GMT -5 cassie said:

I imagine that good pop songs are written for an untrained voice with limited range and control. Simple to sing, simple to remember. (Hey, "Mary Had A Little Lamb" is a very popular kid's song for the same reasons. Nothing wrong with that.) And, as someone wrote on the thread, many of the listeners pop/Top 40 songs are written for do not give a damn about the voice, or the musical sophistication of the song. 

From the very limited samples I have listened to, Justin is not much of a singer. But, he puts on a performance that his audience loves. If that includes you, it's all good.

So, if you like "Mary Had A Little Lamb," if you like "simple," if "you don't give a damn about the voice," or "musical sophistication" - it's all good"?  Thank you so much! 

Seriously, could there there be one thread, just ONE thread, where the genre of music Adam actually makes - as well as the people who like it - can NOT be insulted?  Is that so much to ask, really?  Would this not have fit better in your "vocal masterclass" thread?

I regret that you felt insulted by what I wrote. I was asked for MY opinion of Justin's vocals and the song. I answered based on what I know from my study of music theory, composition, and study of the voice. I created this thread and the vocal masterclass one to have a place to discuss voice techniques, musical interpretations, and music theory in more detail and with more analysis than is appropriate or of general interest on the daily news thread. 

I do not equate musical "simplicity" with anything derogatory. Many of the songs everyone knows and loves to sing are musically "simple." Take the chorus of Paul McCartney's "Mull of Kintyre." Of all his compositions, it is, I think, second only to "Yesterday" in popularity in the UK. There are only 5 different notes in the melody line of the chorus. "Amazing Grace" is beloved by millions (and has a melody line which is, actually, very similar to Mull of Kintyre, now that I think of it). It has a very simple melody. "Jingle Bells", "O Christmas Tree", "This Land Is Your Land"? Yup, all musically simple. Easy to pick up, easy to remember, easy to sing no matter whether you have any formal music training. In fact, in order to be a good sing-along, a song almost has to be "simple." You don't hear many folks singing along to "The Star Spangled Banner", do you? And most people enjoy LISTENING to "O Holy Night" but don't include it as a sing along when they go caroling. 

When I used the term "musical sophistication" I was referring to the complexity of harmonies, structures, melodic lines, chord progressions and variations, time signatures, tempos, musical themes, and dynamics. "Bohemian Rhapsody" is musically sophisticated. "We Will Rock You" is not. Both are great songs. 

I stand corrected about saying some folks "don't give a damn about the voice". That was a little strong. What I was referring to was the repeated comments from AToppers about fans of pop not caring about the voice if they like a song. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the work of Bob Dylan, Joe Cocker, or Rod Stewart, even tho' no one would say they have beautiful tone and impressive range. 

As I said, I created these threads to have a place to discuss aspects of music and voice that I appreciate and others may as well. If you want a thread where you and others can discuss exclusively all the pop music and singers you love , there is room for that on Adamtopia as well. Talk to Q3 about setting one up with you as a moderator. 

[cassie]

Dec 16, 2015 4:29:39 GMT -5 toramenor said:

You know what, I can't even with this whole Justin Bieber thing...

To get that bad taste out of your mouth ears, you might want to listen to some actual good singing and actual good songs

I love Christian Borle. He is a Broadway star, a great actor, but also a really good singer. I didn't want to compare him to Justin Bieber, or to Adam Lambert for that matter, but I enjoy his voice, he's got a marvellous technique and I've been singing Vienna recently non-stop so my mind has been going to Christian Borle's rendition of that song in the TV show Smash:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCKhbZw9qSM

I also love this song and Christian's voice is perfect for it - he is so delicate when he needs to be and so powerful when the song requires. I really feel like he tells the story perfectly:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPvtz3Sc6jE

Wow! That second song is so well sung, so well performed, with such emotion, such poignancy. I am impressed with Christian. Also, impressed with the song. So unexpected, so musically sophisticated ..... oops, maybe I should say "complex." Thanks for sharing.

[Deleted]

You referenced "Mary Had A Little Lamb" twice in your post and "Amazing Grace" and "We Will Rock You" . . . zero - until now. Either that was a bit of a put-down of the song (and those who like it) or you are not very good at picking references:/. But, "regret" acknowledged.

A pop-friendly thread, I understand, is on its way - I will await. But I REALLY don't want to be a moderator! I find it's enough for me to just moderate my own self